We will be at the library this weekend. If that is not convenient, go to the recalljanicedaniels page on facebook and leave a message with your name and address, and we will come to you!

I don't remember using "extremist" in the definition? However, I invite you to research the John Bircher Society to see the similarities.

Tim, you said "radical right-wing" then you made the equivalence ("talk like a duck..."). Personally, I equate radical with extreme. So again, can you mention what in their platform is extreme, or radical?

Cristian, everyone knows that there is no party platform as such for the various "tea party" movements. What liberals know is that there are lots of voters, perhaps a majority now, who've been turned off by liberal notions of government. They fear this; they fear not having a coherent and acceptable political philosophy that the voters will accept, so they hide it. Jeff knows this; thus, the continued rant.

I don't fear the disparaging comments nor the ad hominems directed toward me. I would hope that none of the liberals get disciplined for their emotional responses to people on the other side. We want this all to hang out there for everyone to see.

It won't change a thing, of course, because we have two sides operating on entirely different levels despite the very fact that "political philosophy" and "theory of government" and the US Constitution begin from a cerebral and not an emotional base. That is why the twain will never meet.

I should have put quotes around "An American political advocacy group....described as radical right-wing." That is the definition, not my statement. I do find that the Tea Party activists are radical in that they are more conservative than the traditional Republican Party philosophy. They espouse Nixon...even though he violated the law in the Watergate Scandal...they espouse Reagan...even though he violated the law in the Iran-Contra Arms fiasco, the Grenada Invasion and raised taxes...they espouse George Bush (the 1st)...even though he violated the law in waging the 1st Gulf War...they espouse George Bush (the 2nd) even though he lied to Congress and the whole world about WMD. I could also rail against Carter and Clinton. The bottom line is that it was a Republican President that started down this path of economic failure and it was succeeding republican and democratic presidents and Congress that have continued the spending cycle. The Tea Party needs to establish itself as a new party and not try to ride in on the bootstraps of one of the established parties.

Tim, the fact that "Tea Party activists are radical in that they are more conservative than the traditional Republican Party philosophy" (I happen to agree with you there) does not make them radical or extremist. It is merely a reflection of the fact that "traditional" Republicans have abandoned their republican philosophy and embarked on a spending-to-no-end journey, with their Democratic colleagues.

At least this is how I see them.

Attn: Christian Teodoridis. Apparently you, sir, have a very short memory. As I recall not so very long ago, Troy Patch Editor, Jen Anesi, had to issue you a written warning, after you verbally attacked someone with a "disgraceful slur," (to use you own words) only because you didn't agree with their opinion. Remember? So Mr. Teodoridis, perhaps you should heed your own advice.

Jeff, try to recall better.

Tim, I think history proves, so far, that 3rd parties get nowhere on the national scene. Thus, the effort to reform the GOP to make it into a truly alternative political party. You are right in placing blame on GWB and the GOP for leading us down the path we now find ourselves stuck in. That's the rationale for the unorganized tea party movements. I hope they remain unorganized because it doesn't allow the liberals to have a sitting duck to shoot at, no one specific individual or incorporated group against which to fight.

Ah, but the people know which side their bread's buttered on.

Tim, indeed, it was a Repub president who at least took us further down the pathway of economic disaster. He didn't begin it. Nonetheless, now you know why the tea party phenomenon has sprung up, giving lots of people a renewed opportunity to battle against the demons of economic responsibility and cultural stability and thereby reveal where they really stand while denying that they do so.

"There are a few issues (homophobic slurs, transit center) that have dominated the discussions, but there are so many other issues I have with her performance." -CC

Right! All of them are policy issues, CC. Time was when recalls were instituted for gross criminal or moral lapses. Not any more. The losing side in a policy dispute uses the law to attempt to exact its revenge. We have someone around here who cannot accept that the mayor conducted a a contest among elementary schoolkids!
Yeah, "gross misbehavior." But nobody comes from a liberal perspecitve, of course!

No, it is not just a policy issue. Policy issues alone would not have people exhausting hours of their own personal time to get her recalled. It is a "respect for others" issue.

And where does it spell out that recalls are reserved only for gross criminal or moral lapses? If I feel that someone is not doing their job as a representative of the city, then why should I have to wait for the end of her term to fire her from those responsibilities? We love to compare the public sector to the private sector...in the private sector we do not have to wait 4 years to fire a CEO who is not doing their job capably. Why are you rewriting the laws of when a recall can be done?

If holding people accountable is a liberal act, then I am much more liberal than I previously thought. Apparently, you just saved me from doing any research in the next elections like I have done previously...I can just vote democrat across the board :-)

You are so right about this not being a conservative vs. liberal issue. The problem is that some individuals cannot see past that. Their tunnel vision has blinded them to the obvious. Last night was a great example. The reappointment of an individual to the Zoning Board of Appeals who has a less than credible reputation. Is this what we want for Troy? I don't. Unfortunately, three council members were a part of this fiasco. This was purely a "good ol boys" payback.

CC, not angry, perhaps, about activity or inactivity during budget sessions, but we are taking note. Indeed, that is matter for consideration at a later time. Budget sessions are relatively recent, however. Not begun prior to the recall petition drive itself.

Ed: You are wrong about budget sessions being a new phenomenon...they have been performed for many years...you must have missed them.

You can't have it both ways, Ed. You criticize people for only judging her on the first month of her tenure, but now I give you a very concrete example of her recent failings and you disqualify it.

So what does your notes about the budget sessions say? Would you agree that she did not keep her campaign promise to deal with the mismanagement of our tax dollars? She was great at criticizing the city manager, but then she proved she couldn't do any better when she had the chance.

Am I wrong? Is the Mayor really doing what she was elected by those who voted for her to do? Should we discuss the real city issues OR should we just go back to the national perspective talking points that has very little to do with the recall of the mayor?

Christian - I would love your opinion on the budget sessions and the mayors role in them. You have been a very vocal supporter of hers, but her actions in the budget sessions seem to conflict with your philosophies. Did you see the budget sessions?

Tim, perhaps you misunderstood my comment about the budget sessions. I know that they are a regular part of managing the city. I only referenced the current sessions.

CC, I do not discount recent inattention by the mayor to current budget hearings. I specifically said that this is a matter for us to consider down the line. I believe that the mayor must be fully involved in such matters. At this time, though, I do not consider them grounds for a recall.

You see, CC: the recall was instigated over policy questions. I'm one who believes you recall elected officials only because of criminal activity or gross negligence or matters that approximate such. The mayor's policy won in November; the voters knew where she stands on fiscal matters. Using the recall mechanism for any purpose at all might be legal, but I question its appropriateness at this time. After a year in office, any mayor who played no bigger role in city government than that of presiding king or queen should then be booted for negligence.

CC, the national perspective has very much to do with local issues because it hinges on our notions of governmental power, taxation, sources of and uses of funds, etc.

The recall was started over a policy issue--had to be because the Facebook stuff was well before the election. Daniels was voted in on policy issues. We'll see regarding her future focus on budget issues, which the mayor must be seriously involved in.

As for getting at the "real issues." I've already suggested what some of them are, had people complain to moderators about it, and am here to say nobody owns this forum despite what they thought was theirs by right. That's being a bit snarky, but I am incensed at the way some folks played their "behind the scene" dirty trick. And you wonder why I have made some statements that I did make?

Anyway, enough of that. I'll do better at keeping the focus closer to home. None of need respond to anything we consider to be impertinent.

I'll be paying closer attention to what happens at city hall. Like everyone else I must call 'em as I see 'em, and I am not above changing my mind about the all-important issue. If the petition drive is successful, the mayor has several months in which to demonstrate her attentiveness to the budget.

It was from the start. There were denials, of course, but then we find that some random acts of truthfulness were committed during the ranting, proving where people are "coming from." Some of us don't deny where that is, but we have a duty to teach some others the importance of acceptance of self. lol

Cathy, specific individuals are not the issue here. What is the real issue is that we all maintain civil discourse and that some of us disabuse ourselves of the notion that we can go behind the scenes to exile those we cannot or will not dialog with. The Constitution and the reinforcing courts will not stand for this.

Can you guys please just let this go? Enough with the First Amendment and court talks. It doesn't apply to a moderated forum like this. It is the Path's site and they can do whatever they want to moderate the comments. It is part of the terms of use below the site ("Patch will make the sole determination as to whether Content is acceptable for the Service"). Let it go.

The Patch moderators seem to be very lenient and fair, so I don't get what you guys are complaining about. Just be nice, and people will generally be nice to you back.

TALK ABOUT TROY!

All of these questions have been answered multiple times, but it can't hurt to answer them again.

If we are successful gathering the necessary signatures, the recall question will be placed on the November ballot, along with the normal election year candidates and issues. There will NOT be a special election, and thus, no additional burden to the taxpayers.

The Troy City Charter defines the procedure for a vacancy in any elected office. First, the Mayor Pro Tem will act as Mayor until the vacancy is filled. Then, section 6.7 of the Charter states that the City Council will fill the vacancy within 30 days by majority vote. That is, the current council will pick a new mayor. That new mayor will hold the office until a successor is elected by the people, which will occur in November 2013. Keep in mind that a regular city election will be held in November 2013 anyway, so no additional cost is borne by the taxpayers.

CC has already responded to the election timing and the council actions directed by city charter if a recall is successful, but I want to correct you on the term of the present Mayor...she is not and will not by November 2012 have served half of her term. She would have served exactly one year out of four. The harm she has already done will be worse if we have to endure three more years. The purpose of a recall is when a majority of the citizenry feels that an elected official is not representing the whole constinuency...not just the minority ideological supporters of the Troy Tea Party...and I suggest that she is not representative of the majority citizenry of Troy. I do give her credit for mobilizing the citizens to correct this election mistake...maybe more will pay attention to local matters and vote in city and school elections in the future.

What's embarrassing is that you take time now to raise questions that Matt has graciously answered countless times. Have you not been listening?

What's reprehensible is that you call Matt a liar with no justification. Can you not fact-check your own writings?

What's insulting to me, one of the "good-hearted, well-meaning people" helping in this effort is that you continue to insist on boiling it down to a pedantic and superficial level by claiming it's 100% partisan. Will you not offer the respect you so desire to others in your city?

It is obvious to anyone who has seen a petition, that you have not even read it! Again, misinformation.

I don't know Matt Binkowski. I have talked to him a total of 10 minutes and that's about it. I wanted this recall to happen and I didn't need Matt to tell me why. Many people were calling for the mayor to be recalled long before Matt and several others stepped up to organize the effort. There are 100 people who have collected signatures. This isn't about Matt...no matter how hard you try to make it sound like it is.

It's interesting you say Matt is serving his own political agenda. Matt has largely stayed in the background when it comes to communications. Any communications come from "Recall Janice Daniels", never signed specifically by one of the lead organizers.

If Matt was serving his own personal agenda, he would be better off creating a personal web site where he takes credit for other peoples accomplishments, promotes non-existent relationships with political figures, and turns harmless contests into a chance to reward ardent supporters. The Mayor has written a pretty solid script for self serving activities. I don't think Matt is anything like our Mayor...thankfully. But this isn't about Matt, this is about the Mayor and her inability to represent our city with integrity.

Jeff, you make a good point about attacking ideas but not people. There are some around here, however, who cannot even stand their own ideas being questioned. When the heat is on they complain to those who moderate this board. I can prove this, by the way. This they do when they cannot make an argument against what is presented here for all to read.

When one ventures into the political arena, one had better be prepared to give and take. The only rule is that we not engage in personal attacks nor use what would generally be regarded as vulgar or otherwise objectionable language. That, however, is not how some view what they must consider their own ownership of the forum.
What do you say to people who act this way?

Huh?

Cristian, you speak of wanting to unify, have respectful discourse, and of exhibiting your true nature in face-to-face dialog. Yet here, you never miss an opportunity to use disingenuous, insulting and downright inaccurate descriptions of your fellow residents.

I believe your true nature has already been revealed.

Actually Sue, if you revisit the entire comments thread on this article you will find out that YOU are the one insulting people. I have not insulted anybody.

I never mentioned anything about your nature, your momma or whatever other childish things "adults" use on their "playground".

Cathy, references to the people supporting the tea party movement by using a pornographic sexual term is unacceptable. Interesting, isn't it, from which side of the political spectrum this pornographic term came. One need only look at the most prominent of political websites on both sides of the divide and compare the level of the language used. So be it. Free speech.

Ed, again you are suggesting that I used a term to describe the tea party movement that I DID NOT USE! Nor have I ever used it. My vocabulary is sufficiently large to not require such terms. I expect an apology for the multiple times you have accused me. If you look back at a post from June 5 at 9:02 am, you will see that it was someone named Jeffrey. Again, misinformation slandering individuals.

According to the Urban Dictionary, a "Teabagger" is: A person who believes that wasting billions of taxpayer dollars on war and tax cuts is okay and that criticizing the president automatically makes you an anti-American traitor, but only if the president is a white Republican. If the president is a black Democrat, it's suddenly okay to brandish assault weapons at his rallies, call him a communist socialist Marxist racist Nazi terrorist nigge...whoops, Muslim. Teabaggers are typically obese inbred southern WASPs who are still upset that they lost the Civil War. Most of them can't spell worth a damn and think "nuclear" is pronounced "nookyular". Despite what they say, 99% of teabaggers are white and Republican.

The teabaggers at yesterday's rally waved signs claiming that the Civil Right's Act is communist and unAmerican.

Or: A person who is unaware that they have said or done something foolish, childlike, noobish, lame, or inconvenient.

Which do you prefer Cristian?

No, they haven't been submitted, but short of a natural disaster, they will be. And YOU read the reference and see I did not use that reference. Educate YOURSELF. I choose not to waste any more of my time. Too much misinformation from you,

You missed the point Cristian...you asked us to Google "teabagger" and I did as you requested and reported that result of that google...did you not see the Urban Dictionary reference? What do you not consider a trait of a teabagger? Do you advocate increasing the military budget? Have you ever served in the military? I have and I'll tell you that once you increase military spending and preparedness for war, the generals and corporate military contractors will lokk for a war someplace...anyplace...reference Vietnam, Iraq, Grenada, Afghanistan...so what's next? Iran? Korea? Pakistan?

Tim, sorry we must have been talking about different things. The reason I said the term was an insult is because when it's used in a political discussion, the real meaning is meant to disparage (definition no 2 in this: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=teabagger)
and not to engage in a discussion on the merits of specific public policies.

Tim, so the Urban Dictionary is your reputable source of definitions? Do you really think that a sign or two proclaiming the Civil Rights Act to be un-American to be representative of all tea party supporters? If so, then I'm sure I can find scads of signs with foul language on them, held up by demonstrators on the other side of the political spectrum and say they are representative of that side. I will bet you, though, that were a count made from viewing video of various rallies, you will find more scatalogical and obscene signs on one side of the political spectrum than on the other. Wanna compare the quantity and quality of the trash left at Wisconsin's state capitol versus that left at the Glenn Beck rally in DC?

Tim, you really don't want to go where some of your statements are leading you. Besides, neither of us wants to be accused of venturing beyond local themes, right?

Ed: The Tea Party invited the term "teabagger" by adopting the tea bag as a logo and the derogatory definition of "teabagger" is not the implication for the Tea Party today...at least not in my thoughts as I didn't even know what it was until I googled "teabagger" as a response to Cristian.

Additionally, I am not painting a broad stroke on all Tea Party advocates...only the version that Mayor Daniels, Glenn Clark, et al are espousing. I believe in limited government, taxation only when neccesary and a strong military, but I also believe in limiting our military so that we don't promote war or become the world's policeman...a fair taxation policy...pro-choice...and tolerance and acceptance to all regardless of race, religion or sexual preference.

I believe that Mayor Daniels' comments concerning a gay lifestyle; her position on the definition of marriage; her support/promotion of anti-transit center speakers that infered a racist slant into their arguements; and her support of unqualified people of questionable racist leanings to serve on the city's boards puts her further right of the traditional Tea Party movement. Again whether she knows it or not, her actions and words place her outside the circle of traditional republicans. Oh and I will be voting for Romney in November as the current President is even further left of the traditional democrat.

The criticism I've heard (and believe myself) of the mayor with regard to her incompetency during budget sessions has more to her not understanding municipal budgeting. She repeatedly asked questions that showed a lack of knowledge on how the budget is compiled and what it all means. In addition, she stated on record both that a) the library would be closed if it were not for the millage that sustained it and b) that she still believed the money is there to keep it open. She can't have it both ways...she is lying to herself and her constituency if she's going to say things like that.

CC answered this question above, but I'll reprint it for you: "All of these questions have been answered multiple times, but it can't hurt to answer them again.

If we are successful gathering the necessary signatures, the recall question will be placed on the November ballot, along with the normal election year candidates and issues. There will NOT be a special election, and thus, no additional burden to the taxpayers.

The Troy City Charter defines the procedure for a vacancy in any elected office. First, the Mayor Pro Tem will act as Mayor until the vacancy is filled. Then, section 6.7 of the Charter states that the City Council will fill the vacancy within 30 days by majority vote. That is, the current council will pick a new mayor. That new mayor will hold the office until a successor is elected by the people, which will occur in November 2013. Keep in mind that a regular city election will be held in November 2013 anyway, so no additional cost is borne by the taxpayers."

Jeff, here's another ball being thrown on to the court: Some folks recently complained about one of the posters being excessively argumentative. Mind you, no complaints about personal attacks or inappropriate language. The poster got a warning, after which he immediated noted that violations of First Amendment rights are actionable in court.

Yes we must be civil. No, there is no "mama" to run to when we cannot defend our positions and dislike the very notion that someone challenged us, at least not anymore. FYI, the above is documented, too.

Now, let's all be adults. There's no crying room hereabouts.

ljd, what is playing out in Troy, in part, is a reflection of what is playing out on the national level. When people have strong feelings and firm ideas about issues, they rise to defend them. My only concern is with people who go behind the scenes to shut off dissent, an issue I've addressed where it needs addressing.

Call me anything you want, just don't call me late for dinner.

Troy's a great place to live; been here a quarter century; love the great mix, the diversity.

I plan to be there, Cris, and am hoping others join for civil coffee. What, no "adult beverages"? I won't arrive in my Prius or Cooper nor be carrying a copy of the New York Times. Look for a shaven head.

Yes, we've rambled a bit, CC. First Amendment rights are important, however. Without them a "popularity contest" (or 'unpopularity contest") would determine who may post. Believe me, I know whereof I speak.

Chris, you might ask for the starting point of divisiveness. I don't believe it is the mayor herself. Rather it is, in a generalized sort of way, a certain view of government that many do not subscribe to. Morever, many of those "many" dislike being labelled; but in so many of their posts demonstrate that the label is accurate.

What has played out here in Troy in recent months closely resembles what has played out in our neighbor state across the lake for a good while. It was NOT resolved Tuesday, despite the election results. The "anti" crowd will be back.

Perhaps what we have here on a miniturized scale is a reflection of what we have nationally. There ARE competing and contradictory views of the nature of government, and these views influence are attitudes about everything that has a political dimension, from planning meetings in a subdivision to the chambers on the Hill in DC.

What we may be experiencing for the first time in Troy is a very concerted effort on the part of those with one view of government to organize and win. That, too, is happening on the national level in the struggle within one of the political parties to make it truly distinct from the other one. I think you catch my drift.

Definitely learn about all groups in the city and hear their voices.

It's only in truly getting to know the back story that we can all see how we've ended up where we are, and how new voices and groups of residents are rising up to restore integrity to the city.

Cathy, you'll have to cite the statements in this thread that prove your assertion that I accused you of anything. You won't find any. I merely entered the discussion to state the origins of that term. I also pointed out indirectly which side of the political divide is given to the use of gutter talk when it protests or even blogs.

If an individual used the term while ignorant of its source, that is understandable. Once aware of the discussion about it, however, common courtesy would have suggested that the individual apologize for having done so. Our language is rich with words that we should refrain from using in public. I've stepped in the mess myself. Consider the entire conversation useful if you have learned something about the use of a particular word. Nothing you have written thus far suggests to me that you used the word deliberately in order to disparage anyone.

Ed, you said this to Cathy:
"Ed Lambert
10:31 pm on Thursday, June 7, 2012
Cathy, references to the people supporting the tea party movement by using a pornographic sexual term is unacceptable.
"
After she said this:
"Cathy Fucinari
8:01 am on Wednesday, June 6, 2012
Getting Janice's recall on the ballot is a done deal. Don't doubt it. And, Cristian, I also reminded you about the Patch editorial staff warning you. We can't all be wrong.
"
Not sure where you saw her use a term that the Tea Party used to describe themselves, before they realized the other meaning...as she said, the poster "Jeffery" used the term. Your comment probably should have been in response to that post vs. Cathy's if you were soley commenting on the use of the term.

Ed Lambert:

I am absolutely stunned, and extremely impressed at your change of mind reflected in the above statement regarding how words take on different meanings depending on the context in which they are used. I have gained respect for you.

Inner Voice and Daffy, perhaps your observations also apply to people who jabber on social media, eh?

What about the great bruhaha launched by those in this town who felt they had to be the proxy insulted ones and then use that as their excuse to launch a recall. Any justification of all that can only be interpreted as some folks believing in the "protected species" nonsense propagated these 4 decades by one political party in particular.

If nothing else, the recent exchanges have, perhaps, helped some people understand the derivation of words and then knowingly choose whether they want to continue to use them.

Now, again: Why the huffin' 'n' puffin' about a word that is proudly displayed on numerous gay and "academic" websites, not to mention popular tv series now in syndication?

I just provided one more opportunity for "the offended" to dance.

Ed: Yes, there has been a lot of upside down thinking going on in this city on all sides. This is because most people really don't understand how they create their own experiences and so they think other people are the problem. This is unfortunate and it is the root of all perceived problems. In reality there are no problems, everything has been created perfectly.

In all cases when someone is offended, they have offended themselves. This is also true in the case of the Mayor's comment on facebook that I believe you are referring to. So I agree with you on that point, but I believe that your further assumption that this comment was used to launch the recall is faulty and incomplete. Yes, many people upset themselves over that episode and many people called for her resignation. I think we can agree on that but I do not believe that the recall effort is based on her facebook post. It is infinitely more complicated than that and you can read about it on the www.RecallJaniceDaniels.com website.

Ed Lambert:

Because, as you said, context gives words their meaning. It is clear what the Mayor intended. I thought you had learned something. Alas, it appears I was wrong. I withdraw my previous statement.